tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post7931382071921237171..comments2024-03-27T18:54:46.951+00:00Comments on Syniadau :: The Blog: Wales' own language is WelshSyniadauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13876017048168055247noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-88922354859496179302014-02-04T10:22:36.047+00:002014-02-04T10:22:36.047+00:00Presumably once we've reached the point whereb...Presumably once we've reached the point whereby 'all citizens of Wales have a duty to know Welsh' we can swiftly move on to the next matter ...... all citizens of Wales have a duty to be either handsome or beautiful.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-78159949889441681812014-02-01T13:40:53.170+00:002014-02-01T13:40:53.170+00:00Thanks, M.
I have to say I'm a little surpris...Thanks, M.<br /><br />I have to say I'm a little surprised to learn that priod iaith is only ten years or so old. The three Iberian SoAs all originally date from the late 70s, in the first steps towards democracy after the death of Franco. So the formula has been around for some 35 years. <br /><br />To me, it's important that there is a formula or narrative that <b>everyone</b> can get behind, and that's why I wanted to get it right in English as well as Welsh. <br /><br />But it is just a formula. What it "implies" is a far more subjective question. I'd just repeat the point I made in the main post, that in <b>practical</b> terms, the statutory position of the language is different in each of the three countries. For example, only Catalonia prioritizes Catalan over Castilian and makes it a duty for all its citizens to know Catalan (this is actually a reflection of the Spanish constitution, where all citizens of Spain have a "duty to know" Castilian). But Catalunya's current SoA dates from 2006, and reflects how things have moved on since the 70s. This was the <a href="http://www.gencat.cat/generalitat/cat/estatut1979/titol_preliminar.htm" rel="nofollow">1979 version</a>:<br /><br /><i>1. La llengua pròpia de Catalunya és el català.<br />2. L'idioma català és l'oficial de Catalunya, així com també ho és el castellà, oficial a tot l'Estat espanyol.<br />3. La Generalitat garantirà l'ús normal i oficial d'ambdós idiomes, prendrà les mesures necessàries per tal d'assegurar llur coneixement i crearà les condicions que permetin d'arribar a llur igualtat plena quant als drets i deures dels ciutadans de Catalunya. <br /><br />1. Catalonia's own language is Catalan.<br />2. The Catalan language is official in Catalonia, as also is Spanish, which is official throughout the Spanish State.<br />3. The Government of Catalonia will ensure the normal and official use of both languages, will take the measures necessary in order to ensure knowledge of them, and will create the conditions making it possible for them to achieve full equality in terms of the rights and duties of citizens of Catalonia.</i><br /><br />So the basic formula remains the same, but the concrete ways in which it is operates can be strengthened over the years, to reflect political will and whether the language is getting weaker or stronger. <br /><br />In Wales, I don't think we can <b>yet</b> say that all citizens of Wales have a duty to know Welsh, but we might well get there before too long, depending on the extent to which Welsh-medium education becomes the norm. Each of the three Iberian countries is on a different rung of the ladder. In Euskadi, it is a matter of parental choice, although the percentage is greater than in Wales. In Galicia, <a href="http://www.galego.org/english/today/education/school.html" rel="nofollow">since 1995</a>, certain subjects have to be taught in Galego in all schools. In Catalunya all teaching is in Catalan. All three countries are ahead of us, and we can learn from them and follow in their footsteps.MHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329059309196746446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-3988645305382878932014-02-01T07:53:02.490+00:002014-02-01T07:53:02.490+00:00MH - I've heard priod iaith used by some acade...MH - I've heard priod iaith used by some academics and language activists. I think the term is a recent one which has come from contact with Basque, Catalan and Galician links. <br /><br />It's a very recent idiom, ten years or so. Gwion Lewis, the barrister also discussed this terminology in his 'Hawl i'r Gymraeg' booklet, if I remember correctly.<br /><br />It works for me because it says that Welsh is the priod iaith, it was the language of Wales, which has been dislodged. <br /><br />But, you're right, it's a term which ie used by Cymdeithas which has come through their Iberian links.<br /><br /><br />M.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-37081813896592880912014-01-31T02:25:02.821+00:002014-01-31T02:25:02.821+00:00I've no problem at all with "priod iaith&...I've no problem at all with "priod iaith", M. But is there anything significant in the "we"? Are you talking about Cymdeithas, or who? MHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329059309196746446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-22491320684445768942014-01-30T20:29:45.147+00:002014-01-30T20:29:45.147+00:00We've been using 'priod iaith' which, ...We've been using 'priod iaith' which, I see is translated as 'proper' in English but the English word doesn't encapsulate the meaning correctly. Priod is closer to 'approriate' or maybe 'original', implying a language which was dislodged.<br /><br />M.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-28438186214226139352014-01-29T12:52:12.089+00:002014-01-29T12:52:12.089+00:00In the light of MH's last sentence in the main...In the light of MH's last sentence in the main post, Interesting that "a spokesman for the Welsh Conservatives" is today reported as referring to Welsh as "our national language": http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/tories-challenged-over-mps-suggestion-6640369Efrogwrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08743089894656954100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-92024709434376128022014-01-29T00:22:54.972+00:002014-01-29T00:22:54.972+00:00Yes, I agree that the "but" is a bit neg...Yes, I agree that the "but" is a bit negative, and one of the positive things in all three Statutes of Autonomy is that the statement about Catalan/Galego/Euskera being their own language comes first. <br /><br />So I think what 13:44 has come up with is a definite improvement, and I've added it to the main post. Thanks. MHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329059309196746446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-58347111745287601512014-01-28T23:27:05.597+00:002014-01-28T23:27:05.597+00:00'Whilst' has the same problems as 'but...'Whilst' has the same problems as 'but'. Plus having the statement at the end looks and feels tacked on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-6767928391428730462014-01-28T20:32:53.487+00:002014-01-28T20:32:53.487+00:00What about "Welsh and English are the languag...What about "Welsh and English are the languages of Wales, whilst Welsh is Wales's own language"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-41955544348538359362014-01-28T15:57:21.256+00:002014-01-28T15:57:21.256+00:00Fantastic to focus on the language of Wales when o...Fantastic to focus on the language of Wales when our health and education systems are going down the pan.<br /><br />No wonder Labour is destined to rule the country forever.<br /><br />kphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03313438657508449613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-70345052621252704582014-01-28T15:16:47.805+00:002014-01-28T15:16:47.805+00:00Anon 13:44 again. I think Efrogwr is right- the &#...Anon 13:44 again. I think Efrogwr is right- the 'but' I think inadvertently reproduces the same problem that MH refers to in the original post- it suggests a kind of qualified/limited acceptance of English as a language of Wales which could be misconstrued, rather than a formulation which unambiguously states that both languages are equally 'of Wales' whilst expressing the unique position of Welsh within that through positive affirmation (as distinct from any implied/accidental legitimization of English). Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-25554869017100868722014-01-28T13:47:18.465+00:002014-01-28T13:47:18.465+00:00Thanks for this. I like Anon 13:44's formulat...Thanks for this. I like Anon 13:44's formulation. MH - is your use of "but" in your suggestion once again undermining English,which you were trying to avoid? You could say: "Welsh and English are the languages of Wales, and Welsh is Wales' own language."Efrogwrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08743089894656954100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-57548056007654416322014-01-28T13:44:07.240+00:002014-01-28T13:44:07.240+00:00Interesting piece. I always thought that "uni...Interesting piece. I always thought that "unique" language would be an appropriate English-language functional equivalent to "llengua propia", but the term "own language" does much the same job. I would suggest however that the "but" in your formulation sounds rather awkward and my suggestion would be along these lines:<br /><br />"Welsh, Wales's own language, and English are the languages of Wales"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-26816226078464570192014-01-27T21:46:13.620+00:002014-01-27T21:46:13.620+00:00Funnily enough, MH I was hoping somebody would cle...Funnily enough, MH I was hoping somebody would clear up what was meant by "language proper".Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347494808853759106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-73958852791907817712014-01-27T21:26:54.515+00:002014-01-27T21:26:54.515+00:00I've just noticed that Owen has put me to sham...I've just noticed that Owen has put me to shame by doing an article on the whole document, rather than just one point in it. It's <a href="http://oggybloggyogwr.blogspot.com/2014/01/plaids-vision-for-future-of-welsh.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.MHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329059309196746446noreply@blogger.com