tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post1378509780886566539..comments2024-03-27T18:54:46.951+00:00Comments on Syniadau :: The Blog: Why Wales should build offshore tidal lagoonsSyniadauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13876017048168055247noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-59119844611629260242015-05-31T13:08:59.178+01:002015-05-31T13:08:59.178+01:00Barrages and lagoons are very grim and environment...Barrages and lagoons are very grim and environmentally destructive projects. The Severn Rivers Trust have calculated that power from the proposed Swansea lagoon will be the most expensive electricity in the world!! As usual in the UK, plans such as these are delivered by decision making systems in thrall to developers who want to make profits at the expense of the living environment. The Taff barrage being a very shocking example of that. In Canada / Bay of Fundy, where tidal power and its impacts have been studies for decades, Tidal Stream power is now the focus. Barrages and lagoons are the dinosaurs of tidal power technology. PLEASE do look at this website and move towards arguing for tidal stream power generation which will not involve destroying huge areas of an internationally important habitat. <br />http://acer.acadiau.ca/FERN.html. <br />Also tidal stream power could be one of THE green energies worldwide. There are development programmes in Scotland, Canada and elsewhere, if you are looking to develop the Welsh economy that is where the potential is.<br />Owainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331997174458144110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-44632756185197503212011-07-05T00:00:21.035+01:002011-07-05T00:00:21.035+01:00Is there any news on this?
Perhaps one of the rea...Is there any news on this?<br /><br />Perhaps one of the reasons that Westminster is not keen on offshore tidal lagoons is that much of the potential for replication and expansion lies in the Welsh parts of the Irish Sea. And England would not want to be buying the lion's share of its energy from an independent Wales.<br /><br />All the more reason to go ahead with a 50Mw pilot scheme.HHBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02877601997606224982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-1770590061086460022010-10-20T19:02:12.711+01:002010-10-20T19:02:12.711+01:00I have heard tonight that Peter Ulman of Tidal Ele...I have heard tonight that Peter Ulman of Tidal Electric is still interested in continuing with the Swansea Bay project, and has been in touch with several bodies to state his position. <br /><br />It has occurred to me that as the WAG have power over energy projects of under 50Mw, that if TE would re-configure the 60 Mw Swansea proposal to come in at under 50Mw (making it a two pond impoundment would do that) then the invisible impediments from within the DTI (or whatever it is called now) would just disappear!Siônnynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00021974709953206048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-81538921814524324192010-10-20T11:09:39.682+01:002010-10-20T11:09:39.682+01:00As I understand it, the IP that tidal electric own...As I understand it, the IP that tidal electric own refers to the configuration of using a combination of low head turbines and offshore impoundments to generate electricity.<br /><br />You are right about amount of power available being related to the head of water built up - but that is one of the beauties of the lagoon system - it can be controlled to produce power exactly when needed - unlike other renewable sources! And as the tides at any point around the coast is predictable to within 3 minutes for the indefinite future. <br /><br />BTW - I checked my figures, and apparently these turbines, which reached full technical maturity in the 1930s, only need 1 metre of head, and can in theory produce for 22 hours out of 24. Of course, that would not be needed, because peak energy demand totals only about 8 hours a day, but the flexibility of the lagoon will cater for that!Siônnynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00021974709953206048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-27273428128163311432010-10-19T18:22:52.227+01:002010-10-19T18:22:52.227+01:00Thanks for the comments.
Jerym, You're not ...Thanks for the comments. <br /><br />Jerym, You're not the only one who has been bemused as to why the Swansea Bay scheme never got off the ground. I'm tempted to say it was because the previous government wanted to build the Lavernock-Brean barrage, and that they therefore blinded themselves to any other possibility. They certainly misrepresented the alternatives, but whether that was deliberate or merely the result of being fixated on one solution is harder to say. Perhaps the government just wanted "one grand gesture" in order to be seen to be doing something, but that is typical of the difference between a "top down" and "bottom up" way of looking at things.<br /><br />There are, I think, still intellectual property issues with Tidal Electric ... although I have to confess that I can't see what is "patentable" about the idea. We've been using differences in water level to drive machinery for centuries, and doing it to generate electricity for a hundred years.<br /><br />- <br /> <br />Dylan, thank you. But I agree with you on many things too. In fact I often wonder if you're too good to be a real Tory ;-) <br /><br />But, more seriously. You know much more about money than I do, so why not look in more detail at the financing and economic side of the equation? Madoc Batcup wrote a good article on <a href="http://www.clickonwales.org/2010/10/the-ballooning-cost-of-the-barrage/" rel="nofollow">Click on Wales</a> this morning. As I see it, we have to get a pilot scheme up and running. That requires approval and money.<br /><br />On approval; if what you say, Dylan, reflects the Tory position in Wales, and with the LibDems and Plaid also in favour of lagoons, it only needs Labour to come round. I would hope that this will now be less of an issue simply because the larger schemes have just been ruled out. We are limited by the 50MW rule, but would the Westminster government stand in the way if we could get the matter of finance sorted? <br /><br />What we need to develop is a political consensus that if Westminster can't do it on the scale they want, we in Wales can do it at a smaller scale on our own. If we can show that one works, we develop the blueprint and expertise for doing it over and over. If we start with ones that are outside the line of the Lavernock-Brean barrage (because some will want to keep that option open) we have 600MW in Welsh waters and more in English waters. <br /><br />- <br /><br />Siônnyn, I don't disagree on generation time. We can still generate electricity with a low head, and this would enable us to spread the generating time. However the amount of electricity generated is proportional to the square of the head, so we get more electricity if we do it in a short burst when the water level difference is greatest. As always, the question is to match supply and demand. In practice there will be a constantly changing situation in which it is better to generate one way at one time and another way at another. <br /><br />Yes, I fully accept what you say about subdividing the lagoon (or putting two together, which is the same thing). But in order for that to work the impoundment (or one of them) does need to be higher. <br /><br />And of course I agree about the ecological impact, and mentioned it. This is something which is very important to me, but I have to accept that it is less important to others ... which is why I chose to concentrate on showing that lagoons were better in technical terms irrespective of any ecological argument.MHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329059309196746446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-89210309561854596042010-10-19T16:15:10.373+01:002010-10-19T16:15:10.373+01:00"A detached tidal lagoon has exactly the same..."A detached tidal lagoon has exactly the same advantages as an attached tidal lagoon with no rivers feeding into it, and therefore no problem with silting."<br /><br />Offshore are also kinder to Habitat of migrating bird, which is the RSPB are such fans!Siônnynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00021974709953206048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-61900233052692999162010-10-19T16:11:05.335+01:002010-10-19T16:11:05.335+01:00MH - a most excellent piece on a subject close to ...MH - a most excellent piece on a subject close to my heart. And to get an endorsement from Dylan Jones-Evans has to be the pinnacle of your career so far! ;)<br /><br />Andrew Davies has a lot to answer for in not even agreeing to meet Tidal electric, and repeating lies about how they were demanding too much public money ( they were demanding NO public money!) - but you are right, that is political, and is for another day! <br /><br />Technically, I believe that your figures for useful generating time is far too modest. The Tidal Electric proposal uses low-head turbines, which only require a head of about 2 metres, and therefore, on a spring tide, can generate for periods of about 8-10 hours in every 12.<br /><br />The other very important feature of impoundments is that they can be configured with two of three ponds within the impoundments, and can therefore generate electricity regardless of the state of the tide, - and they can even be used as pump storage resources to help balance the grid.<br /><br />So given that intermittent supplies (like Wind) cause huge problems in balancing the grid, and that there is actually no shortage of Electricity Generating capacity in Wales (it is having the electricity available when it is needed - at peak times that is the problem) - then I think that the case for Offshore tidal impoundments becomes irresistible. <br /><br />By the way, had Tidal Electric not encountered the impossible, and usually invisible barriers to getting their pilot project off the ground, the Swansea Bay lagoon would have been supplying Swansea households for over 2 years by now!Siônnynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00021974709953206048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-7877755489458674892010-10-19T15:29:56.496+01:002010-10-19T15:29:56.496+01:00Damn, I was going to write the same piece but obvi...Damn, I was going to write the same piece but obviously not as well ;)<br /><br />An excellent piece.Professor Dylan Jones-Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07325540579875328746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-985080357558043054.post-32691152807161880772010-10-19T11:25:33.649+01:002010-10-19T11:25:33.649+01:00That`s a good, not too technical explanation for a...That`s a good, not too technical explanation for anyone just getting interested in tidal energy in the Bristol Channel.I`ve been banging on about it for the last five years ever since reading about Tidal Electrics efforts re Swansea Bay.If they had been given more encouragement years ago we would now have actual evidence either way as to the viability of tidal lagoons at probably far less cost than all the paper based `knowledge`accumulated over the intervening years.<br />With luck Tidal Electric may renew interest now that this government is showing a different attitude to things.jerymhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15034126923358819802noreply@blogger.com